Talk:Jean Grey (Earth-616)
Resurrection? Should we really say resurrection here http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Jean_Grey_(Earth-616)#Resurrection.3F ? Isn't she just in the White Hot Room collecting her fragments and can return anytime? She'll need to get what's inside the Cuckoos sometime too. It also says Madelyne Pryor took some of Jeans hair but isn't Pryor dead now? Where is it hinted that Hope Summers will be the key to her 'resurrection' or is it just cause the Phoenix in her eyes that one time? AHB 05:21, September 25, 2009 (UTC) *I agree. The phrase is only a POV interpretation. Fact is, for the moment, none of us know where the whole messiah/baby-story is going - Although i personally have no doubt that sooner or later someone will bring her back and get rid of emma frost, which would be quite sad.--edkaufman 08:07, September 25, 2009 (UTC) ::Agreed on the removal of "resurrection". We should only go with 'what we know' when it comes to these things. If nothing else, it can be on the notes section that Hope is a possible resurrection, but unconfirmed and then updated as that storyline unfolds. I actually liked Jean over Emma... at least the Jean from the Gold team days. Emma just has a better developed character. I mean, how many story changes can you make to the Phoenix -- really... --M1shawhan 21:39, September 25, 2009 (UTC) :::much better this way. I found her a bit weird in the gold team days, having completely teenage-fallen-in-love with her when she was phoenix in the old days (and yeah, i know, that wasn't her. but back then, she still was...), but she grew on me again with new x-men. and just when i really liked her again... they killed her off. do you think marvel has something going against me, or what? ;)--edkaufman 08:51, September 28, 2009 (UTC) ::::I'm tellin' ya. If only we were in charge of Marvel... things would be a little different. Jean Grey would be back and I'd think we could find one comic/team for Wolverine to be in at one time. ;) --M1shawhan 22:37, September 29, 2009 (UTC) :::::What? And miss out on all the cross-marketing possibilities? And not being able to watch some poor kids with too much free time on their hands trying to figure out how this all adds up chronologically? You just wait for the Disneyverse Wolverine/Kim Possible Crossover: "You'd better put some more cheese on those Nachos, bub." It'll be great fun. Maybe they'll get Rob Liefeld to draw seven different foil covers for issue #1... ;)--edkaufman 22:50, September 29, 2009 (UTC) (PS are we slightly going off-topic here?) ::::::Hi, uhm, I don't think it's correct to note her as not resurrected because she was in Endsong and didn't die thereafter. Jean specifically doesn't want to be "brought" back but is forced back to life my the Force and everytime she's shown to be killed thereafter she comes back to life. Tyler Gracyne 12:16, October 10, 2015 (UTC) : I think you misunderstand the content of the above discussion - when Hope Summmers first appeared, there was a lot of speculation about her being a resurrection of Jean, which obviously has not been the case. As for the original Jean, she is still in the White Room, as she herself said in Endsong - terms like "resurrected" don't seem to really apply to that state... As for her living body that was animated, the intro to endsong #3 itself mentions that this was the Phoenix Force animating her body like it had done before, so no, Jean is still "dead". ---edkaufman (talk) 22:22, November 2, 2015 (UTC) :: I disagree, when the Phoenix brought Jean back at the cemetery scene/act, Jean notably told the Phoenix that she was still partly in the White Hot Room, but the Phoenix forced her away, telling her "why are you not with me" before pulling her consciousness fully back. Then later, Jean explained to Wolverine that after her most recent death, she'd broken into a trillion pieces in their eternal "oneness" and began to reform outside the white hot room only to be stopped by the Shi'ar and the only way to complete this, is if she went back by way of death, which no one ever completely did, she left without being dead.---- Tyler Gracyne 13:10, November 3, 2015 (UTC) ::: That doesn't make her "alive" in a common sense. I think we both agree that she's still in the White Room - removed from our reality.. So she's not alive in any sense that is relevant to the Marvel Universe. Of course, you could also agree that of course she's alive in the White Room, but that bears the qquestion whether the now at aleast pseudo-cosmmic being in the White Room and the original Grey are even the same character. Before her next actual resurrection (and yes, that WILL happen sooner or later), we're left with the status quo.--edkaufman (talk) 22:48, November 8, 2015 (UTC) Template blah So, the template wants to use the current alias as its header. Jean is 'dead', and thus doesn't really have a current alias. Is there a way to get the template to choose something else to use as the sidebar header? --Squirrelloid 03:35, May 12, 2010 (UTC) :Its not the template. Somebody just made a mistake.--Max 03:40, May 12, 2010 (UTC) ::Her alias is not Phoenix. She doesn't have an alias. Seriously. You can only have an alias if you're going by another name. She's not. She's not going by anything. --Squirrelloid 03:47, May 12, 2010 (UTC) :::No.--Max 11:56, May 12, 2010 (UTC) ::::Would you care to at least make sense and justify your position? Because saying no isn't really productive. How can someone who is not living (certainly not in any conventional sense of the word) have a current alias? --Squirrelloid 12:02, May 12, 2010 (UTC) :::::What do you want me to say? Out of the blue you want to change the headers on all the dead characters to "deceased" or "none" based on a semantic argument? All that would do is irritate and confuse people. No.--Max 12:46, May 12, 2010 (UTC) ::::::Yeah, it doesn't really make sense to remove the current alias because they're dead. Especially since Jean was last seen in the White Hot Room in the Phoenix garb. ::::::--GrnMarvl14 14:19, May 12, 2010 (UTC) :If the CurrentAlias field is blank, the 'title' (the name of the spot above the image) reverts to the RealName field. If the Title field is filled in, it overrides any automatic title situations. :I have to agree with Squirrelloid, at least in the sense that we should be open for discussion on these types of things. Constant evolution is what will help our site not become stagnant. :I do like having their most recent alias as the title, it kind-of lets the reader know what's going on with the character at the moment, like having Daken as 'Wolverine' and Mac Gargan as 'Spider-Man' when they were in their Avengers. In the case of Jean, I'd be fine with 'Jean Grey' as the title there, and 'Phoenix' or 'The Phoenix' added under the Aliases field. It doesn't seem like a hard and fast rule should apply to this area, but more of a majority rules kind of idea. :Jean was being called 'Phoenix' when she died, correct? And she hasn't come back and used a different name? Now I'm leaning towards Phoenix staying up. Kind of makes sense to have the alias they were using when they died up there. I'd say if she was still a recurring character and wasn't using the Phoenix moniker, 'Jean Grey' would be more accurate. :I haven't really been following her appearances since the story where the Stepford Cuckoos took over the phoenix force momentarily... :— Nathan (Peteparker) (Earth-1218) (talk • • ) 16:56, May 12, 2010 (UTC) While the nomenclature on the alias thing has been sorted out and a change is in the works, I'd like to note that the White Hot Room is part of the afterlife in Marvel Continuity, so Jean is as dead as she can be right now. That she can come back just makes her special, not any less dead. (Phoenix Endsong basically conceeds she's dead too). So disputing her being dead is kind of silly. (Unless of course she's back alive again - I'm about a month behind current releases right now). --Squirrelloid 07:43, June 21, 2010 (UTC) :Bt if she's actively using an alias in the afterlife...then isn't it her current alias? I mean...should Zombie just be "Simon Garth"? He IS dead, after all. :--GrnMarvl14 14:52, June 21, 2010 (UTC) :: I know, this is not helping, but you have to love the phrase "dead as she can be" on her... ;) But seriously, in her case, the question is less what she was called when she died but what she's doing in the afterlife. And since there IS a connection between her afterlife activities and the Phoenix Force, I'm all for sticking with Phoenix (though, of course, personally I always preferred the days when she simply refused to have a codename...).--edkaufman 09:01, June 22, 2010 (UTC) :::I'm honestly not convinced she has/would have Phoenix as a codename anymore. I mean, she isn't using Phoenix as a codename per se. She *IS* Phoenix now, that is to say, its perfectly plausible to refer to her as Phoenix because generally where she goes the Phoenix Force goes (and is inside her). Its more a role/avatar thing now. Of course, she's also still Jean, and Jean and Phoenix are separable (eg, see Endsong). But most of the time they're effectively the same entity, and one could accurately use either *name* to refer to the joint entity. Jean is no more a codename for the Phoenix Force right now than Phoenix is a codename for Jean. Now, is it an alias? Um, moo? I don't know how to answer that question. Is Jean currently an alias for Phoenix Force, or just another name for some portion of a pair of symbiotic beings? Actually, there's probably some relevant philosophy of language that would apply here, if I could be bothered to remember where I stored my old text books... Of course, trying to ascertain the proper metaphysics of the situation is complicated by the fact that Jean is either (1) in the white hot room doing Phoenix stuff or (2) tied to her body (as per the opening of endsong where it resurrected her by going to her body rather than pulling her essence out of the white hot room - seriously, what did it need her body for?) --Squirrelloid 04:15, June 24, 2010 (UTC) :She needed the body for additional drama, and to make the X-Men have to bury it yet again. It would be cool if Jean had multiple graves for every time her body was plucked from the white hot room and reconstructed. If I was Scott, I'd have a hard time getting it on with a new Jean when her old body was still in the ground... :— Nathan (Peteparker) (Earth-1218) (talk • • ) 16:50, July 7, 2010 (UTC) Omega-Level? is there an actual in-comic reference that she's an omega-level? can someone provide this please?--edkaufman 10:30, March 18, 2010 (UTC) :Yes, please! As a reminder, mutant levels can ONLY be added to a page if they have a reference. No reference, no level. :Thanks, :— Nathan (Peteparker) (Earth-1218) (talk • • ) 17:09, March 18, 2010 (UTC) ::I finally removed the damn thing, since it still didn't have a reference. Also, maybe its just me, but without the Phoenix Force she eventually became powerful but was never really at the top of the telepath ranks. I've rewritten her powers section to both be less of a brain sore for people whose native tongue is english, and also to give it some historical depth. --Squirrelloid 09:41, May 12, 2010 (UTC) Was Jean an omega or not? There's a cryptic reference in where Emma Frost says about Kid Omega: "He's an Omega-Level mutant, just like Jean..." Personally, I find this very doubtful. Did Jean really ever have that kind of power on her own (i.e. based on her mutation) or was it her possession of the Phoenix Force that pushed her to such a level? If the first is the case, Emma is clearly wrong and Jean might be an Omega something, but her power didn't come from her mutation. Any other thoughts on this?--edkaufman (talk) 09:14, July 23, 2010 (UTC) :I dislike the labeling of power classes of mutants regardless. I think in this case the writers are just having their own little fan-gasm because they're Jean Grey fetishists. You know who i mean, the type of people who like to inflate the capabilities of their favorite hero. I certainly don't think any power Jean ever displayed sans-Phoenix Force could be described as Omega Level based on my understanding of what that might mean. And any power generated by the PF is not a mutant power, and therefore should not be classed as one. Lets face it, Jean is a cosmic entity now. She should be treated as one. --Squirrelloid 08:27, July 26, 2010 (UTC) ::I agree completely. Still, the reference is there which makes it valid. I propose adding it in form of a not, not a category. In any case, judging from the overwhelming response to this post, it doesn't seem there's too many people who still take great interest in that kind of thing.--edkaufman (talk) 10:58, July 26, 2010 (UTC) I agree with the idea that the common Jean Grey-Summers was short of omega status. One huge reason behind this is the fact the an omega-level mutant is immortal in a sense. Robert Drake does not need his physical body, in X-Men: The End, Magneto became pure electromagnetic energy, and Vulcan openly stated that Blackbolt could not kill him because of his omega-level power. Before the Phoenix, Jean was very susceptible to death. For her to continue to live-on, she would have to have the power-level of the Shadow King or Nate Grey who live on as a mental energy of sorts. Although, Madelyn Pryor is an exact copy of Jean and death has not slowed her down. Guess I just contradicted myself?Wazzirving 23:01, October 15, 2010 (UTC)wazzirving PLEASE READ END SONG AND OBSERVE THE PART WHERE JEAN GREY ATTACKS THE PHOENIX FORCE RIPPING IT OUT OF EMMA FROST, ONLY AN OMEGA FORCE MUTANT COULD EVER DO THAT!!!!! Omega Class Mutants are defined as mutants that can use there abilities to control the very foundations of creation on a subatomic level. Emma Frost is not an Omega Class Psionic and labeling her so just because lately she has been the lead female featured in too many of the comic books does not make her power set change! She like Xavier are prime examples of Alpha Mutants, powerful yes, and great in potential about how to use their minds like precision instruments to affect other in a radius limited too about 250 -300 mile radius! Examples of Omega Class Telepaths are first and Foremost Jean Grey, Nathan (XMAN) Grey, and Rachel Grey. Mutants who can rewrite entire genetic structures with their minds and communicate and influence minds until an unknown radius exceeding the Alpha level of 300 miles. An Alpha level Telekenetic like Cable could lift about 10,000 Tons with his mind, an Omega Class Telekenetic like there other three Greys start showing a struggle at 50,000 tons. Another thing the Phoenix Force did not further mutate the Psionic abilities of Jean/Rachel Grey to Omega status, the Phoenix Force was attracted to them because they were the only two Omega class Psionic Talents alive that could possibly contain and wield the power of Phoenix at that point. Since these two ladies other Omega class telepaths have emerged Quintin Quire for example and the Gestalt mind of the blond Bimbettes AKA Cuckoos, and because of the their innate Omega potential just like Jean and Rachel, the Phoenix has taken an interest in the story lines of these new characters. If Emma Frost is of equal power to Xavier and Emma is listed as an Omega Class Telepath then Xavier too should be listed as such but he is not! Also it is silly that Xavier is listed as the most powerful human mind blah blah blah and he has never truly proven that, he has proven to be resourceful and an indirect telepathic punk! If he or Emma Frost were Omega class mutants the Phoenix would have sought them out as it has others, it has not and the truth is even when Emma graciously invited the Phoenix into herself for the sake of helping the X-Men, as an ill equipped shell she was almost killed! I know some characters are not being giving enough comic time right now, but they will rise, so lying about their powers is really offensive. Psylockes' Telepathy was strong enough to contain the Shadow king please list her as what she is an Alpha level telepath. Please remember this distinction, Jean Grey took the mind of a highly trained and powerful telepath and split it into millions of mutants and then reclaimed it restoring it to Xavier, this is Omega, Nate Grey ripped Xavier's astral form into the corporeal world, this too is omega, Rachel Grey changed her genome to look like a bird/reptile creature that WAS OMEGA!!!! When it comes to telepaths many of them wield incredible psionic abilities, Jean Grey is more than a telepath she IS PSIONIC ABILITY!!!!! : "Hank, Scott and Warren will improve in their use of their abilitites, they have essentially reached the apex of the potential inherent in those abilities. Jean and Robert have more complex abilities ... Are they are too young yet, to comprehend the nature of their Omega Level Mutant Abilities? ... I simply prefer to think of such mutant abilities as unlimited potential" - this is a quote from Xavier notes. Since it was before Jean gain phoenix power, it seems that she is really a Omega Level Mutant.--Harasar 09:48, November 28, 2011 (UTC) :Regardless of the circumstantial evidence, I still believe Jean is not an Omega. If you take a step back and see that Jean is only half-mentioned as an omega when talking about other people in both X-Men Forever and X-Men Phoenix Endsong, what you really see is all of the other comics where it would have been appropriate to call her out as a definite Omega and it didn't happen. :If you look at the void left by NOT identifying her that way in every other book, the two references where she is look like mistakes by writers on the outskirts of cannon Earth-616. :— Nathan (Peteparker) (Earth-1218) (talk • • ) 18:01, May 28, 2013 (UTC) Omega Level telepath I will consider her as an Omega level mutant, because it is said (well, initially talking about Quire but still), and that the way we do here. The problem is: What reference to her being a omega level telepath ? I have found a reference to Alpha Psi, but not for Omega telepath, so I remove that category until reference. Undoniel (talk) 19:06, November 3, 2013 (UTC) Feelings on Phoenix The following was presented by: User:White phoenix on the page. I moved his comments to here: when jean grey uses her power to the max she become something so powerful that the only in only one eterinty nor galactus could defeat her.She become phoenix a monster that is ten times stronger then apocalypse.They belived that phoenix in the future that phoenix will blow they earth of its axis,Atfer the beging of the END OF THE GREY'S the X MARVEL wanted to know who was the strongest marvel jean grey(whitephoenix) or beyonder they fought to death. Jean grey was winning, After the useing her telepath powers.When beyonder defeated jean grey. x marvel decided that beyonder was the strongest, After she cameback x marvel said wait she back as a white phoenix beyonder used his full powers in blasted her white phoenix stoped it with her telekniess, And throw beyonder to the ground in said your not even worried. Afeter that he blasted her again ,Then white phoenix rised in blow him to bits in blow the world to even the x marvels with it,After she open he eyes she said why these raw power must take over me crying saying i must restore the earth in one peace she opened her hands in let this white shiney light of wave out of her hand in restored the earth as one ,After that x marvel now clam her as the strongest marvel ever to walk the world.White phoenix said i shouldn't be on this planet anymore i am danger to the earth. I mus leave now. x-men said no jean you tran with the white phoenix in be one, Jean said NO!! you see what happen when i use only half of y power just image if i use all my power. The world will be gone in a sec, So i must go for god sake i must go,professor x said but jean please you can be one of the strongest x-men ever,Jean said i already am.X said please jean i beg you.Sorry X but i am a moster i must go see you in 616 ,Jean NOOOOOOOOOOO, AFTER JEAN BLOW HER SLEF TO BITS THE TEARS TO X WAS IMMESLTY.White phoenix force whisperd to X in said jean is not dead shes in the jamcia bay as ultra phoenix.X said said i can feel her shes so powerful shes even more powerful then ME!!20 years later she rised out of the water in came back (UNDEFEATABLE) IN (UNTOUCHABLE). In she is now the laeder of the space marvel. to protect anything that come to earth jean will DESTROY IT. DO NOT COPY THIS OR THE FOLLOWING POLICEY OF THE MARVEL DIRCORTS. WILL SUE.. THANK YOU VERY MUCH IN HAVE A FUN DAY. --M1shawhan 22:00, October 15, 2010 (UTC) CODENAME Hey guys. I know this is such a silly argument, but I believe that in this wiki every character who currently has a codename, and has his/her own quote should be written with her codename right? I've been doing some stupid argument with Edkaufman who edited the quote speaker as "Jean Grey/Phoenix" with the Phoenix word is linked with Phoenix Force and insisted that it is about the Phoenix Force connection not with Jean Grey's current codename as Phoenix. Truth to be told, since 2007 I joined this site that was never a problem, and since Mr. Edkaufman here brings the problem up to the surface an create some edit war. Like I said to Edkaufman a hundred times, that it should be written in codename because of it is her current alias but he/she insisted on his/her own opinion. I think this little thing about quote speaker is unnecessary and shouldn't be taken seriously here. Thank you for your attention. The Forest 1:33, March 10, 2012 :To be fair - the quote was given as from both characters before, I just defended the status quo, because I feel, yes, at the moment of the quote (as can be inferred from the quote itself), it is both characters speaking. It's not just a question of codename, but one of two separate entities which at that moment in time were one. As to the question of the "stupid" edit war: Thank you for finally listening to me and bringing it up here where it belongs instead of simply reverting my edit (BTW, until this is resolved, the page is locked down. I'm starting to get a little sick of this).--edkaufman (talk) 18:42, March 9, 2012 (UTC) ::Oh by the way Mr. Editor. I prefer you to make it as "Jean Grey/Phoenix" because I'm getting sick of people who keep insisting that they are separate entities no matter how many stories of X-Men being told to convince that they are the same. You have the rights, right? So I please you to revert it as you wanted to. Thank you for locking the page by the way. It means a lot for such a great editor like you. The Forest 1:53, March 10, 2012 :::Your wish is my command.--edkaufman (talk) 18:56, March 9, 2012 (UTC) ::::Sorry, Forest, but I agree with Ed. I agree simply because of the timing of the quote too. It was said when, we assume, the Phoenix and Jean were fighting for control of the "body". Even if the Phoenix Force entirely spoke it on its own, it was still spoken in Jan's body. That should count for something, if you're going to put the quote on Jean's page. Also, they are separate entities, just conjoined, killed, and resurrected recently. If you consider them the same entity, then what about her alternate reality daughter Rachel who had the Phoenix for YEARS and called herself the "one true Phoenix"? :::::--Wazzirving 01:02, March 10, 2012 (UTC)wazzirving Look, I'll give you a clear example of what I meant all this time. If Jean Grey didn't use her Phoenix codename anymore, for example she took Firebird codename instead. In the quote speaker section, would you write it as Firebird, or as Phoenix? In my case, I would write it as Firebird, because this IS the Firebird page, not the Phoenix page, although she said the quote when she was still Phoenix. Got that? It's about current codename. You wouldn't want to write quote speaker as White Queen in Emma Frost page, BECAUSE Emma Frost doesn't use the White Queen codename anymore, and that is the fact that she uses her public identity now. Or for clearer statement, you won't write the quote speaker as Ariel nor Sprite, in Shadowcat page just because she said the quote when she was Ariel nor Sprite because it will make confusion for people out there, as the fact that she is using her Shadowcat codename right now. That is for my opinion why we should write it Phoenix, only. Hope this explanation helped much. The Forest 10:41, March 10, 2012 (UTC) :I disagree again. The page doe not belong to the codename, it belong to the character. A small example of what I mean: When I first joined, I asked Peteparker why the Jean Grey (Earth-616) page wasn't Jean Grey-Summers (Earth-616) and he said that we go by her maiden name, as the surname could change indefinitely. In a sort of similar way, I think that we need to keep the quote with the "time" of its use. If Kitty Pryde said a quote as Sprite, I think that it should be quoted as Sprite, not Shadowcat. That might confuse me, because I would read the text and assume she said it during her Shadowcat days and be incorrect. It also gives a respect to a time frame in a character's life. As we know, they all go through changes and it should be noted if a character was more aggressive as "Death-Man" than when he changed his name to "Peace Lover". If we put a negative quote as if "Peace Lover" spoke it, doesn't that slightly confuse you? One way around this whole problem is to just put the character's name in the quote, but I guess Ed wasn't going for that in this case. ::--Wazzirving 04:02, March 10, 2012 (UTC)wazzirving :::I had actually agreed on a version where the quote is attributed to "Jean Grey-Summers", I believe, but Forest changed that to Phoenix once more, which is why I locked the page. The reason this doesn't make any sense is a double one: First off, any link going to Jean Grey-616 doesn't go anywhere, since we're already on that page, so "Phoenix" would simply appear in bold, and yes, that could confuse a reader. Secondly, giving both creates an actual link to the Phoenix Force page as well as crediting Jean with the quote. If you're a new reader, you'll have to read both pages anyway to get into the whole Phoenix/Jean Grey confusion.-edkaufman (talk) 11:36, March 10, 2012 (UTC) White Phoenix and Death Could someone tell me in what issue Jean wears the White Phoenix costume for the first time(the one who is totally White, not the current one) and talk to Death and all that stuff? It says Classic X-Men 43, but Classic X-Men 43 page says is a reprint of X-Men 137... -- :It's really Classic X-Men 43. A lot of Classic X-Men issues are reprints with bonus stories/pages, like this one of Jean(more specifically, the part of her that was with the Phoenix instead of on her original body in the coccoon, as explained on Classic X-Men #8) talking to Death in a White Phoenix outfit. CaptainWiccan (talk) 21:16, June 29, 2019 (UTC) Teen Jean I feel like the adventures of the time-displaced X-Men should be placed onto their own section of the Expanded History pages, to improve the readability of these articles.--HED 03:58, October 17, 2019 (UTC)